Curse

Big_Iron · Sep 11, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Very nice story. I'm going to try this for fun later tonight.

mazey vorstagg · Sep 11, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Lol, you're so right. I use him all the time and morgan is normally the last one standing. And he goes on standing for ages after the rest of the team dies.

Paragons FTW!

Crom The Pale · Sep 11, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Paragons are great. I often find that mine can turn even a pug into a great team. The hero AI has come under a lot of attacks of late but this thread goes to show with the right skill bar a hero can do amazing stuff.

Dunkoro is the same, give him a great build and he can take care of buisness better than most live monks ever will.

[IMG][/IMG]

He did die there, but as you can see it took a massive amount, and he survived well past everyone else dying and being resurected by him!

Side note - that is one nasty boss battle

Stolen Souls · Sep 11, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Back when I was still in a guild, me and a guildie went to help another guildie with a NF mission. We added our choice of heros, and the guildie we were helping made the comment "lol, this is the first time I've seen someone use Morgahn". I have mine set as general party support.

I guess people are so used to the "2mm + 1monk" or "2sf + 1mm" setups that they don't even give the other classes a chance. Morgahn is a huge asset to the team, relieving pressure from the monks, and helping with the casters' energy a bit.

And yes, anytime I manage a wipe, Morgahn is ALWAYS the last man standing. Often staying alive long enough to start ressing other members and preventing a full wipe.

Lourens · Sep 11, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Paragons are great. I often find that mine can turn even a pug into a great team. The hero AI has come under a lot of attacks of late but this thread goes to show with the right skill bar a hero can do amazing stuff.

Dunkoro is the same, give him a great build and he can take care of buisness better than most live monks ever will.

[IMG][/IMG]

He did die there, but as you can see it took a massive amount, and he survived well past everyone else dying and being resurected by him!

Side note - that is one nasty boss battle

Dunkoro FTW !!

jon0592 · Sep 11, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

I didn't even know you can use 2 parties for this...

This was my team build:

Me (Axe war)
Livia (SV)
Xandra (Channeling)
Ogden(WoH)
Mhenlo
Lina
Herta
Zho

I flagged Ogden on the side that I WASN'T on. I flagged him behind the golem so the destroyers attack the NPC of that side. I would alternate sides, killing off 2 or 3 at a time then switching sides, and flagging Ogden to the other side. Only at the end did the Ele Asura die and they begain whomping on the Golem but I killed em off and won.

hopefulliness · Sep 12, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

wow... this is just odd, my group had just gotten to frostmaw and wiped all except for morghan and vekk, he was at full health and they ended up killing him, though vekk died at the end. i agree with the OP, morghan is hardcore

bhavv · Sep 12, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Dunkoro is the same, give him a great build and he can take care of buisness better than most live monks ever will.

[IMG][/IMG]

Not my definition of a great build, but whatever. Your party was killed

But 2 monks, paragon and warder for me are FTW in most cases.

A11Eur0 · Sep 12, 2007, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon0592

I didn't even know you can use 2 parties for this...

group of 4, group of 4 is what he meant.

BradNess · Sep 12, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I don't see why people are so suprised Paragons rock in general.

So many PPL flamehated on the Paragon when it first came out that it drove others to believe that what they said about it was true. Thankfully for folks like SotiCoto that are showing PPL what the Paragon's can truly do in battle, it's turning a lot of heads

TY SotiCoto for showing others the way of the Paragon

Racthoh · Sep 12, 2007, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Anthem of Guidance {E} [Command]

An attack skill helps his elite work. Actually, just use a better elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

"Watch Yourself!" [Tactics]
"Stand your Ground!" [Command]

There is really no need for both of these skills on the same bar when you can just dump those excessive Command points into more tactics and maintain a decent boost in AL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

"Never Surrender!" [Command]

Breakpoint is 10 command for +4, next break point is 14.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Armour is all Radiant

You have two adrenaline shouts, explain the reasoning behind this rune selection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

P/W
Leadership : 12 (9+1+2)
Command : 13 (12+1)
Spear Mastery : 10 (9+1) {because my Morgahn has a Req.10 spear}
Tactics : 5

As stated, 13 command isn't doing anything useful. Having a slightly higher critical +% on GftE isn't terribly useful when you don't have an attack skill to really make it worthwhile. Lower command to 10, drop SYG! for Spear of Lightning or Merciless Spear, boost tactics.

Lourens · Sep 12, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

I run 3 rangers with keen arrow so go for the eyes is pretty nice xD

[skill]focused anger[/skill] is a nice skill to use with [skill]hexbreaker aria[/skill]

Cebe · Sep 12, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slidje

morgan always dies last

I noticed that, so does Hayda. I went in a 2-human, 6-hero group into Rragrar's menagerie last night, when we were fighting one group we got lynched by another, although we were served a glass-and-a-half of Cadbury's Party-Wipe Hayda lived for much longer than anyone else before she died.

Nice work promoting the "underdog" class Soti

SotiCoto · Sep 12, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

An attack skill helps his elite work. Actually, just use a better elite.

I selected that Elite not only because it is a spammable 4 adrenaline chant..... but because of those damnable Raptors and Spiders around the Asura lands who have a nasty habit of blocking attacks. It DOES help. Once I go over to the Charr lands, I might well change his elite if the enemies there don't block as much.

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There is really no need for both of these skills on the same bar when you can just dump those excessive Command points into more tactics and maintain a decent boost in AL.

Those command points do more than just maintain one skill y'know. The tactics skill is only there to be freely spammed for energy. I only dumped the excess points there to avoid wasting them completely.

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Breakpoint is 10 command for +4, next break point is 14.

Point taken. Might as well upgrade his Command rune.

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You have two adrenaline shouts, explain the reasoning behind this rune selection.

And one chant.
Couldn't think of anything better to put for general use. I kitted out Morgahn's runes LONG before I ever thought of using these builds. Radiant armour is good general-purpose gear with the resources to use just about any build. I'm not in the habit of changing their kit on a regular basis... Why... what would you have used?

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As stated, 13 command isn't doing anything useful. Having a slightly higher critical +% on GftE isn't terribly useful when you don't have an attack skill to really make it worthwhile. Lower command to 10, drop SYG! for Spear of Lightning or Merciless Spear, boost tactics.

Morgahn isn't supposed to be a death-machine ploughing through the enemy; he is there for support purposes. GftE isn't for him so much as it is for the rest of the party... and for regular spamming. Spear of Lightning on Morgahn sure as hell won't help me land that all-important first hit to get my combo running on an annoying block-happy Spider. The only spear attack I'd consider at all is the Wild one to destroy stances.... ONLY.

Clearly you entirely missed the point here.

ryanryanryan0310 · Sep 12, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I noticed that, so does Hayda. I went in a 2-human, 6-hero group into Rragrar's menagerie last night, when we were fighting one group we got lynched by another, although we were served a glass-and-a-half of Cadbury's Party-Wipe Hayda lived for much longer than anyone else before she died.

Yeah, Hayda doesn't like to die. She usually has less DP than me.

MisterB · Sep 12, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Paragons generally last longer in PvE because they are usually targeted last by the AI, and because they have armor nearly equal to warrior. No comment on the Paragon build, Racthoh pretty much summed it up.

Racthoh · Sep 12, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I selected that Elite not only because it is a spammable 4 adrenaline chant..... but because of those damnable Raptors and Spiders around the Asura lands who have a nasty habit of blocking attacks. It DOES help. Once I go over to the Charr lands, I might well change his elite if the enemies there don't block as much.

The thing is, he has to hit as well to build the adrenaline to use Anthem of Guidance. You'd be better off bringing something like Rending Touch on your sin or a necro with Rip Enchantment so that everyone has a 100% chance to hit with any attack against the raptors. Does it help? Of course it's going to help, but completely removing the enchantment is going to be better in every circumstance.

Alternatively you could've brought Defensive Anthem, because if the raptops aren't hitting and scoring criticals their Critical Defense will end quickly. The spiders however use Natural Slide, bring a hex.

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Those command points do more than just maintain one skill y'know. The tactics skill is only there to be freely spammed for energy. I only dumped the excess points there to avoid wasting them completely.

I don't consider the extra % chance of critical on GftE a good enough reason to pump command to 13. You really aren't going to notice that 9% difference between 13 and 10, especially when you're playing yourself on an assassin. Nor are your heroes; 10 spec spear criticals aren't going to be the turning point in a battle.

You're better off grabbing a shield with a tactics requirement, and using that on Morgahn instead so WY! is stronger. Swapping your command/tactics values around frees the slot for SYG (since you'd have 12 tactics at that point for +21AL 10 duration) and GftE! since you really don't need to use it all since the only high energy skill on your bar is now gone. Or, you can use some of those points to pump spear higher and give him an attack skill or two so he can actually kill stuff as well.

Quote:

And one chant.
Couldn't think of anything better to put for general use. I kitted out Morgahn's runes LONG before I ever thought of using these builds. Radiant armour is good general-purpose gear with the resources to use just about any build. I'm not in the habit of changing their kit on a regular basis... Why... what would you have used?

Okay, two adrenaline shouts and one adrenaline chant. Yet all I see for energy skills are SYG which is 15 every 30 seconds and Aggressive Refrain which isn't even a concern because once it's up it's never going to end. Well, in this build it will since you don't have a chant/shout that can be maintained inbetween fights. And, Leader's Comfort. Now for some reason you're using Radiants on top of that energy management, which both Survivor (offset the use of the major rune) or Centurions (free +10 to any paragon) are both cheaper/better.

I'll assume you have not played a paragon yourself, because if you had you'd know that one adrenaline shout can maintain your energy very well.

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Morgahn isn't supposed to be a death-machine ploughing through the enemy; he is there for support purposes. GftE isn't for him so much as it is for the rest of the party... and for regular spamming.

GftE is for the rest of the party? I'm sure your 9 and 10 spec spears are dropping enemies like flies on Hayda and Morgahn, and the odd critical hit by Talon carries the party. Granted wand criticals are very powerful since the other half of your party is wanding when they aren't casting.

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Spear of Lightning on Morgahn sure as hell won't help me land that all-important first hit to get my combo running on an annoying block-happy Spider. The only spear attack I'd consider at all is the Wild one to destroy stances.... ONLY.

If your first hit is so important, change it to a lead that can't be blocked and don't use a bad elite. Apparently your Morgahn is using a magical spear that allows him to overlook the block chances that are stopping you, allowing him to build adrenaline so you can get *one* attack through. You however could bring Wild Strike as the offhand into your Moebius combo so that everyone can hit and everyone is dealing damage with their normal attacks instead of your *one* all important skill.

Also Wild Throw requires 7 adrenaline to use, the spider should be dead by then.

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Clearly you entirely missed the point here.

What was your point?

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Morgahn isn't supposed to be a death-machine ploughing through the enemy; he is there for support purposes.

Your point is that your support character managed to solo something? Here is the thing; paragons can do the support role and the offense role all in one bar. You've brought skills that aren't doing that support role all too well so you have to fill the entire bar with them. You could instead bring:

a) Wild Strike as your offhand before the Moebius/Death Blossom chain
b) An enchantment removal somewhere (Mirror of Disenchantment would wipe all of the Critical Defenses from the raptors)
c) Drop the third monk for something useful

I could understand an all out support role in something like DoA, but this is normal mode GW:EN.

SotiCoto · Sep 12, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The thing is, he has to hit as well to build the adrenaline to use Anthem of Guidance. You'd be better off bringing something like Rending Touch on your sin or a necro with Rip Enchantment so that everyone has a 100% chance to hit with any attack against the raptors. Does it help? Of course it's going to help, but completely removing the enchantment is going to be better in every circumstance.

I'd rather not be using Rending Touch when my build relies heavily on its own enchantments... That would just be stupid, given the number of enchants I'd have to strip in the average herd of Raptors.... And there isn't space for a Necro in the party... I'm considering a slight variation on the build but for now I'm ok with just one awkward enemy.
I do take your point about the adrenaline though. Hadn't really thought that through I guess.

Quote:

Alternatively you could've brought Defensive Anthem, because if the raptops aren't hitting and scoring criticals their Critical Defense will end quickly. The spiders however use Natural Slide, bring a hex.

Meh.... Might work out, but given that I'm attacking constantly and will regularly get hits in... it wouldn't do much for me. Maybe the other members of the party....
Hex? Not happening. There are no hexers in my survival set-up... and I'm not running any attributes which use hexes.
Oh, plus you're forgetting that the Monk spiders use Guardian.... among other things. Another Enchant; not a stance.

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I don't consider the extra % chance of critical on GftE a good enough reason to pump command to 13. You really aren't going to notice that 9% difference between 13 and 10, especially when you're playing yourself on an assassin. Nor are your heroes; 10 spec spear criticals aren't going to be the turning point in a battle.

The Command points had nothing much at all to do with GftE. I was going for a general-purpose Command-based build. It was and is meant to be the core of Morgahn's build.... Suggest better Command skills maybe, but I don't have any intention of removing that from him.

Quote:

You're better off grabbing a shield with a tactics requirement, and using that on Morgahn instead so WY! is stronger. Swapping your command/tactics values around frees the slot for SYG (since you'd have 12 tactics at that point for +21AL 10 duration) and GftE! since you really don't need to use it all since the only high energy skill on your bar is now gone. Or, you can use some of those points to pump spear higher and give him an attack skill or two so he can actually kill stuff as well.

You've lost me now. There are very few abbreviations in the game that I can remember and am likely to use regularly (you saw one of them in the last paragraph), but people just abuse them these days. What the hell is "SYG"?

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Okay, two adrenaline shouts and one adrenaline chant. Yet all I see for energy skills are SYG which is 15 every 30 seconds and Aggressive Refrain which isn't even a concern because once it's up it's never going to end. Well, in this build it will since you don't have a chant/shout that can be maintained inbetween fights. And, Leader's Comfort. Now for some reason you're using Radiants on top of that energy management, which both Survivor (offset the use of the major rune) or Centurions (free +10 to any paragon) are both cheaper/better.

Chants and shouts that can be maintained between fights? .... Why? I don't know of any, and I can't really see any point in using them. He gets the energy back quickly enough anyway.
Why?
He doesn't run out of Health any more than he runs out of Energy... presently. It doesn't seem to make a difference yet what he has there.... so I'm not throwing money around on the suggestions of one person.... no offense.

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I'll assume you have not played a paragon yourself, because if you had you'd know that one adrenaline shout can maintain your energy very well.

The two classes in the game I have NOT played in PvE are Paragon and Mesmer.... true enough.... and I've played Mesmers in Fort Aspenwood and Alliance Battles.... so Paragons are the last class I have yet to play myself. True.

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GftE is for the rest of the party? I'm sure your 9 and 10 spec spears are dropping enemies like flies on Hayda and Morgahn, and the odd critical hit by Talon carries the party. Granted wand criticals are very powerful since the other half of your party is wanding when they aren't casting.

I do most of the killing myself... but they do help.
What of it? Who would it be for other than them? I sure as hell don't need MORE criticals...

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If your first hit is so important, change it to a lead that can't be blocked and don't use a bad elite. Apparently your Morgahn is using a magical spear that allows him to overlook the block chances that are stopping you, allowing him to build adrenaline so you can get *one* attack through. You however could bring Wild Strike as the offhand into your Moebius combo so that everyone can hit and everyone is dealing damage with their normal attacks instead of your *one* all important skill.

Ahem... Golden Phoenix Strike lets me get to the DB-Moebius spam faster.
I don't use a lead attack. Putting one in would require changing my whole build, as I don't have a 9th slot to spare. At the very least it would require getting rid of Critical Strike... which generally isn't advisable.
So yes... I had considered it.... but that aside I think if I was going to start using Lead Attack > Offhand, I'd have to do away with the Moebius thing altogether.

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Also Wild Throw requires 7 adrenaline to use, the spider should be dead by then.

Whatever. Didn't notice the description to account for it being adrenaline-based. Bloody retarded idea IMHO since the other two "Wild" skills in the game are rightfully energy-based.

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What was your point?

That damage done by Morgahn is effectively irrelevant, as he is only there to help keep the rest of the party alive and keep me hitting stuff where possible.

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Your point is that your support character managed to solo something? Here is the thing; paragons can do the support role and the offense role all in one bar. You've brought skills that aren't doing that support role all too well so you have to fill the entire bar with them.

Why would I need him doing the Offense role? Waste of slots. The more defensive things I have on him the better... as it allows me to monitor and control the killings myself... and rest assured when I can hit the enemy... they drop fast enough.

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You could instead bring:

a) Wild Strike as your offhand before the Moebius/Death Blossom chain

As already noted: not feasible.

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b) An enchantment removal somewhere (Mirror of Disenchantment would wipe all of the Critical Defenses from the raptors)

Possible, but not on me. Perhaps Dunkoro since he is secondary Mesmer... though he is set to passive.

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c) Drop the third monk for something useful

¬_¬ ... Two monks are, from what I can tell, insufficient for GW:EN. Everyone else who claims to be doing fine seems to be using three. Seems to make sense to me.
I presume by "the third monk" you mean Lina anyhow... right? Mhenlo is the only actual healer monk there, and Dunkoro's build has proven itself incredibly useful so far...

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I could understand an all out support role in something like DoA, but this is normal mode GW:EN.

Yes... and normal mode GW:EN is tougher than most of the rest of Guild Wars. I don't know how everyone else is so damned complacent about it.... but then apparently anything that doesn't result in them being on -60% death penalty constantly is instantly branded "easy".... My idea of "easy" involves rampaging through enemy groups in around half a minute each (minimum) with absolutely no deaths.... and I don't generally see that outside of Shing Jea...

So.... on the matter of you thinking Morgahn doesn't do his job right.... would you care to demonstrate a primarily Command / Leadership-based set of support skills he SHOULD be using?

Darkpower Alchemist · Sep 12, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

I have to admit, my paragon heroes rock, even more so when I play my own Paragon or use heavy shout builds. Yet, take Racthoh's words into consideration before you take up any further arguement.

The Paragon using [skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill][skill]"Go for The Eyes!"[/skill][skill]Anthem of Flame[/skill][skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] is the exact build sequence you refered to. With 1 adrenaline shout, an energy shout, and an energy chant. With the 2 shouts and AR, energy is no issue to a Paragon. Radiant filled armor isn't needed, a Centurion/Radiant mix would most likely be perfect. Since max energy for the radiant runes are only achieved on the chest and legs, then those are the only places you would need radiants. Let's look at what is being used exactly to bring the full comparison to what really matters. Maximum Efficiency.

[skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill][skill]Anthem of guidance[/skill][skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill][skill]"Stand your Ground!"[/skill][skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill][skill]"Go for The Eyes!"[/skill][skill]Leader's Comfort[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]

Their really is little reason for the use of AoG unless you have a team coordinated spike, which is not happening in PvE or with H/H. as for WY! and SYG!, they both do the exact same thing, and with the ANET adjustment to armor stacking, both are not working together to make a huge armor boost. WY! seems to be the better of the two when the tactic investment is there. The stripping of any enchantment that causes blocking against your team would more than likely be the better tactical application. That frees up two slots for spear attacks/other options.

Your options in the command line are rather plentiful, as are your spear attacks. [wiki]Anthem of Disruption[/wiki] comes to mind as one of many command options. As for spear, Merciless or Cruel spear could work as well. The point is not to tell you that you're wrong, but to show flaws in a build to make it better. Think about it.

SotiCoto · Sep 12, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

......Your options in the command line are rather plentiful, as are your spear attacks. [wiki]Anthem of Disruption[/wiki] comes to mind as one of many command options. As for spear, Merciless or Cruel spear could work as well. The point is not to tell you that you're wrong, but to show flaws in a build to make it better. Think about it.

I appreciate your assistance.... though I do have to question some parts...

Since thinking about the issue with adrenaline before and not actually being able to hit anything to get it (plus of course it only applying to Attack Skills, meaning Me and Talon only)... I set about making alterations.
Now I'm getting all the more perplexed as to how I can make changes to the build without having to revamp the whole thing and start from scratch (which it seems more and more like I'll have to do.

As alternative Elites go.... I'm not liking Defensive Anthem if only because it lasts around 9 or 10 seconds and takes 25 to recharge... plus it'll vanish to uselessness in the midst of combat on anyone actually attacking (most of us).

I'm seeing Focused Anger as the only alternative, but that is a bit weak when I'm only using one or two adrenaline skills at best. I might not bother with an elite at all at this rate.... Paragon Elites seem to suck so far.

So far, amongst the changes.... I'm toying with the idea of the triad of:
[skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill][skill]Blazing Finale[/skill][skill]Burning Refrain[/skill].
It seems to be a more viable selection than bothering with Anthem of Flame since only two members of the party use attack skills at all presently.

Regardless though, that.... along with the change to the elite, the existing "Go for the Eyes!" and Aggressive Refrain mean there are only two skill slots left....
NOT dedicating them to Command skills would essentially mean the build has been wasted and the points in Command at all are essentially just a joke. However.... putting Command points there at all requires eliminating Leader's Comfort / Signet of Return / Both..... which isn't exactly desirable.... -_-;

I'm not sure what to do now....
>_<;